How Does One Convert to Judaism?

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Before we understand if you are talking about conversion, somebody converting to being Jewish, we have to understand what being Jewish means. In order to appreciate what conversion to being Jewish is, we have to understand what does it mean to be a Jew in the first place. So there is an old age, old [00:00:25] Speaker B: question that people are struggling with. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Is being Jewish a religion or a nationality? And the answer that you'll commonly hear is both. And that's where people start scratching their head. How can it be? So this is how it really is. It is a religion which is given to a very specific group of people based on their nationality. That means that if I meet a Chinese person, I'm not going to be telling him that he is not allowed to eat pork. If a Chinese person eats pork right in front of my face, it won't bother me because from the Jewish perspective, he has no obligation of keeping kosher whatsoever. Let him eat pork every single day. But a Jew is not allowed to eat pork. Very often I'm like in someone's house [00:01:20] Speaker B: and they offer me food. And this house doesn't have a kosher kitchen. The food they're offering me is not kosher. I'm telling, sorry, I cannot have it. [00:01:26] Speaker A: And people say, oh, I forgot, sorry, you are not allowed to have it. [00:01:30] Speaker B: So I tell people, no, no, no, [00:01:31] Speaker A: you are not allowed to have it too. We both have the same laws. You are not allowed to have it too. So why? Because the person talking to me is a Jew. If you are a Jew, you're not allowed to have pork. Your Chinese or Irish or Russian or Turkic neighbor is allowed to have every piece of pork and shrimp and lobster and whatever he wants. So Jews is a nationality, and there are laws which were given to these Jews. The starting point of Jews as a nation and the starting point of Jews as a religion are two different times in our history. Jewish nation was born at one time and Jewish religion was born at a different time. What came first, chicken or an egg? I ordered both from Amazon. [00:02:28] Speaker B: And I'll tell you what will come first. [00:02:30] Speaker A: So now we see that according to what we read in the five books of Moses, in the Torah, Jewish religion was born before Jewish nation. When you hear from everyone, every rabbi will tell you, Abraham was the first Jew. Ask any kid in our Hebrew school who was the first Jew. They'll tell you, Abraham. That's what your kids who went to our Hebrew school will tell you. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Well, guess what? It is only partially true if you're [00:03:01] Speaker A: asking who was the first Jew. And as a follower of the Jewish religion, yes, this was Abraham, Abram, Isaac and Jacob. They were following the Jewish religion. [00:03:14] Speaker B: They were Jews as far as religion is concerned. [00:03:17] Speaker A: But legally, technically, they were not Jewish [00:03:21] Speaker B: as far as their nationality is concerned. Because Jewish nation was not born yet. [00:03:26] Speaker A: The definition of a Jew as we know, somebody whose mother is Jewish. Guess what? Abraham's mother was not Jewish and his wife Sarah was not Jewish either because her mother was not Jewish. And then their son Yitzhak. [00:03:41] Speaker B: So there was no such a thing as a Jewish nation. [00:03:45] Speaker A: So we are not speaking about the [00:03:46] Speaker B: whole idea of conversion yet. Hold on a second. We're going to get to conversion here. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Because there was no concept of a Jewish nation. The only thing that was called being Jewish is following Jewish religion. [00:03:59] Speaker B: So Avraham, Abraham, Isaac, Yitzhak, Jacob, Yaakov, their wives, Sarah, Rivkah, Rachel, Leah, they [00:04:09] Speaker A: were all non Jews technically speaking, as [00:04:13] Speaker B: far as Jewish nation is concerned, as far as belonging to the nation of [00:04:17] Speaker A: Jews, they were not Jewish, but they [00:04:21] Speaker B: knew that God prefers if they keep the Jewish laws. And they were keeping these laws as an added bonus. [00:04:29] Speaker A: So they were not obligated to keep Shabbos. They kept Shabbos because they knew that [00:04:34] Speaker B: this is what God's preference is. [00:04:37] Speaker A: They all kept Jewish laws, but they were not obligated to keep them because [00:04:41] Speaker B: there was no Jewish nation yet and they were not Jewish as far as Jewish nationality is concerned. [00:04:46] Speaker A: In other words, at that moment, Judaism was the same. [00:04:50] Speaker B: How you would look at any other religion today. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Today anybody who wants to be Christian can come to church and he'll say, I'll follow your religion and they'll be Christian. Somebody who's going to come to a mosque and say that I want to be a Muslim, they'll take him. This is how it was before the Torah was given. Once the Torah was given, this is when the Jewish nation was born. I just told you that Avrahamitzko and [00:05:17] Speaker B: Yaakov were keeping the Torah laws. So in other words, they knew the Torah. [00:05:22] Speaker A: So then how could we speak about the Torah being given to Moses, Moshe, Rabbeinu many generations later when Avraham, Ishak and Yaakov already kept the Torah? Before that, it doesn't make sense because [00:05:36] Speaker B: the Torah was known to them. When God gave the Torah, it wasn't that he introduced this information to Jews for the first time. [00:05:45] Speaker A: The Torah as set of Mitzvahs, the Torah as the information that God wants [00:05:50] Speaker B: to give to the Jews has already existed before the information of the Torah was already known. The giving of the Torah, the act the process, the ceremony of giving of the Torah was something different completely. Now there was a group of people who received that Torah. Now this group of people was obligated in following it. [00:06:12] Speaker A: Now God said, I'm creating a covenant. [00:06:14] Speaker B: That's what it says. When Jude was standing at Mount Sinai, [00:06:17] Speaker A: God is creating a covenant between him and the Jewish people for the rest [00:06:22] Speaker B: of the generations, for eternal future. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Now they and their children are bound by these laws. There's a group of people who are now bound by these laws. So till the moment when the Torah [00:06:39] Speaker B: was given, Avraham, Yitzhak, Yaakov, they were [00:06:43] Speaker A: Jews by religion, but not Jews by nationality. And following Jewish religion for them was optional. That's why Avraham had two children. One of them was Yitzhak who decided to follow the Torah. One of them was Yeshmoel, who decided not to follow Torah. We never see the Torah saying, ah, Yishmoel, this evil person who betrayed his religion. He didn't betray his religion. He wasn't obligated. So, yeah, it's up to you. You want to follow religion. If you follow religion, you are praiseworthy. We say, that was so good that Avram followed religion. He found God and he followed religion and Yitzhak followed religion and Yaakov, it's all great, it's all wonderful. But it was an extra added bonus. It wasn't their direct obligation when the [00:07:31] Speaker B: Torah was given to the Jews. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Now the people who are standing at Mount Sinai and their ancestors on mother's side became obligated to following these laws. So that's why the definition of the Jew today is someone whose ancestors on mother's side were present at the giving [00:07:51] Speaker B: of the Torah at Mount Sinai. [00:07:53] Speaker A: So if you are due today, that means your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's many, many generations back, mother was at Mount Sinai when the Torah was given. That's the definition of a Jew. Now, why God specifically chose to have it according to a mother, not according to the father is a good question. [00:08:08] Speaker B: We're going to answer it a little later, if you like. [00:08:11] Speaker A: So now we see that the Jewish nation was born at a different point than the Jewish religion. And actually much later, several generations later. And now we have the concept of a Jewish nation. Jewish nation. These are people who are just by the fact that they were born Jewish, just by their birthright, they're obligated to follow certain laws. That's how we have a religion that is given to only a specific group of People. So far, so good. [00:08:42] Speaker B: The question is, what does it mean to convert? And this is the question we had originally. [00:08:49] Speaker A: If a non Jew just comes and says, you know what? For today I'm going to keep Shabbat [00:08:54] Speaker B: just because then I will tell, listen, you could keep Shabbat all you want, but you're not obligated to do it. That's why for you it's kind of meaningless. [00:09:04] Speaker A: But the question is, how is it? [00:09:06] Speaker B: If we are a specific group of people, a specific nation of people, how [00:09:11] Speaker A: could somebody join a nation? Can I become Chinese? [00:09:15] Speaker B: If I want, I can. [00:09:16] Speaker A: No matter what I do, I will follow every Chinese custom in the world. I'll dress like a Chinese, I will learn Chinese language. I'm not going to become Chinese. Just like African American, just like Hispanic, just like any other ethnic group. I'll never become Irish, I'll never become [00:09:32] Speaker B: Russian, even though people call me Russian very often. [00:09:35] Speaker A: So how can I become someone of a different ethnicity? [00:09:39] Speaker B: So this is what the Torah says. [00:09:42] Speaker A: Listen, you are so proud of being Jewish, you are telling you you are Jewish, you are born Jewish. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Well, guess what? You were born Jewish only because somebody [00:09:50] Speaker A: many generations ago became Jewish because your ancestors were standing at Mount Sinai. So you are telling me you are punching yourself, you are punching yourself on your chest so proudly that you are Jewish. Well, guess what? You are Jewish only because somebody from your ancestry became Jewish. If every Jew became Jewish at one point, it's only fair that we will still allow people to. To become Jewish just like our ancestors did. What does it take for somebody to become Jewish? [00:10:22] Speaker B: Well, we need to look. [00:10:24] Speaker A: What did it take for our ancestors to become Jewish and do the same thing? How did it happen? [00:10:30] Speaker B: Our ancestors received the Torah at Mount Sinai. [00:10:33] Speaker A: They learned all the laws, and then they committed to following them for the [00:10:38] Speaker B: rest of their lives. [00:10:40] Speaker A: And if somebody voluntarily enters this covenant with God, he, our tradition says can become Jewish. So therefore, if somebody comes today and tells me that they want to become [00:10:53] Speaker B: Jewish, I get these calls. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Very often. People call me, I want to become Jewish. It could be anybody. A lot of it because they're marrying somebody Jewish. A lot of it because they heard something good about Jews. It could be for many different reasons. I always do the same thing. I tell them, sure, no problem, let's meet. I meet with them right here in this room at this table, and I tell them about all of the Jewish laws that they need to keep. 99.9% of them disappear and never show up again. Which is fine with me. Very small part of These people, very [00:11:31] Speaker B: small part, comes back and says, yer, am I? I'm interested? I say, well, if you are interested, I can tell you more about it. [00:11:40] Speaker A: And then I tell them, listen, this is a story. If you really want to become Jewish, it's going to be up to you to push forward with this process. But you can convert only after you will be fully observant in every Jewish law, you will be living inside the Jewish community, you will become a part of the Jewish community. And only then I could bring you to a beidin that's going to officially formally convert you. Now, even among people who initially come [00:12:14] Speaker B: back and say they want to do [00:12:15] Speaker A: it, most of them fell off the wagon along this process, which again is fine. I'm happy that people who don't really want to convert are not following through with it. [00:12:24] Speaker B: But there are selective few who are following through with it. [00:12:29] Speaker A: And then there's another process. We have to tell them that, listen, being Jewish is not always so much fun. We have been prosecuted throughout our lives. Antisemitism has existed as long as Jews have been around and will exist as long as Jews will be around. And thank God we live in a country where we are relatively safe, but nothing is guaranteed. And when you are joining the Jewish nation, that means you and your children and your grandchildren will be always sharing the lot of the Jews. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Are you interested in that? [00:13:08] Speaker A: And many people get scared, especially looking at how anti Semitic the world is and anti Israel the world is today. Then when people still want to be Jews in spite of all of this. And this is when Beitin the Jewish court, converts them. And now they and their children and their grandchildren on the mother's side obviously will always be Jewish. Saudi converts to become a Jew, he is as Jewish as the rest of the Jews are. This is how strong this covenant, this bond is. So now you understand, how is it that somebody could convert to Judaism? [00:13:47] Speaker B: So first of all, we understood what it means to be a Jew, and now we understood what it means to convert to Judaism. So this is the situation that whatever [00:13:58] Speaker A: I told you just now, any Orthodox rabbi anywhere around the world will tell [00:14:04] Speaker B: you exactly what I told you. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Now if you will go to any other denomination of Jews and there's a lot of them, each will be telling you something very different. Why? There is a common misconception that there are, let's say, several denomination of Judaism, [00:14:26] Speaker B: there is Reform, Conservative, narus, lex, and [00:14:29] Speaker A: people often think that Reform has very loose laws. Conservative is more observant. They have stricter laws and the strictest is Orthodox. That's what people often think. Realistically, de facto, it's not the case. In Orthodox Judaism, there is a book [00:14:50] Speaker B: called the Code of Jewish Law that [00:14:53] Speaker A: every Orthodox Jew follow. Could be Hasidic, non Hasidic, Lithuanian, what they call modern Orthodox, what they call. There's many. You know, Jews can have million denominations, but if you consider yourself a part of the Orthodox Judaism with its million denominations, you follow the Code of Jewish Law. That's the book. You come to an Orthodox rabbi of any Orthodox denomination and you will ask him, I want to be a good Jew. Tell me how to be a good Jew according to what you believe. And he's going to give you the Code of Jewish Law. That's the book he's going to give you. Here, read this book. This is everything which you need to do. Now. Come to a Reformed rabbi and say, I want to be a good reformed Jew. Please give me a book of laws that says, what do I need to do to be a good Reformed Jew? [00:15:40] Speaker B: He won't be able to give you this book. This book doesn't exist. [00:15:44] Speaker A: Come to a Conservative rabbi and say, I want to be a good Jew according to what you believe a good Jew is supposed to be. Give me the list of rules. [00:15:52] Speaker B: He won't be able to give you a list of rules because it doesn't exist. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Orthodox Judaism is the only one that has this book. So it's not that Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews have different laws. It's not the case. Orthodox Jews have laws. Orthodox Jews have a concrete set of laws. So now, if outside of the Orthodox Jewish world, every synagogue, every congregation pretty [00:16:21] Speaker B: much does whatever they want. [00:16:24] Speaker A: People think that Conservative is more observant than Reform. Well, guess what? I know many Reform congregations that will be looking much more observant than some Conservative congregations because it's literally ad hoc. It's a free for all. It's all up to the rabbi, the board, the congregation, whatever they decide. So now, when it comes to conversion, it's exactly the same thing. If you'll come to an Orthodox rabbi, he will tell you exactly what I told you. Now, if you'll come to any Orthodox rabbi, he will give you the same [00:16:58] Speaker B: answer I just gave you. [00:17:00] Speaker A: If you come to Reform Rabbi, every Reform rabbi or every Conservative rabbi will [00:17:05] Speaker B: give you a different answer. [00:17:06] Speaker A: And it's going to be up to them. [00:17:08] Speaker B: But here is the most interesting, the most important, I should say part about conversion. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Because of that, if somebody converted according [00:17:16] Speaker B: to the Orthodox standards, his conversion is always recognized everywhere. [00:17:22] Speaker A: There's no Such a thing as if [00:17:25] Speaker B: a proper Orthodox rabbi is converting somebody with a proper Beddin, with a proper Jewish court. So there is Rabbeinuta Rashid in Israel, there's a Chief Rabbinate in Israel. And they have already, many years ago, taken it into their hands. And they created a standard of everything from what you need to learn in order to convert to what the process supposed to be. And every rabbi that is recognized by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, which is obviously only Northex rabbi who is doing the conversion according to what they prescribe, this conversion is going to be recognized everywhere in the world. You'll go to Israel, you'll go to England. Here, every Jewish school will take this kid from parents who went through his conversion. It is not going to be questioned in Reform. This is, by the way, a very big tragedy of our generation. What do we see? We see somebody coming to a Reform rabbi or to a Conservative rabbi and saying, rabbi, I want to convert. And Reform Conservative rabbi say, sure. And they convert this person based on [00:18:38] Speaker A: their standards, whatever their standards are, which could be varying. It could be very high standards, could be very low. I don't know. [00:18:44] Speaker B: But the tragedy is that these rabbis unfortunately never tell these people that this conversion is not going to be recognized anywhere outside of their own synagogue. That's what they don't tell them. [00:18:57] Speaker A: They'll go to Israel. [00:18:59] Speaker B: In Israel, this person will not be considered Jewish. [00:19:01] Speaker A: They will want to send their kids to Jewish school here in America. [00:19:04] Speaker B: They'll not be considered Jewish. [00:19:06] Speaker A: They'll go to any Jewish organization around the world. They'll go to any synagogue to officiate at their chupa. [00:19:14] Speaker B: No Orthodox rabbi will do it. So a tragedy is that I know so many families, they think they're Jewish. The wife thinks she's Jewish and she thinks her kids are Jewish. And then when they go to Israel or when they want to send their kid to Jewish school, they want a rabbi to officiate at a bar mitzvah. They come to a synagogue and they ask, can you officiate at my son's chupa? Can you do a bar mitzvah for us? [00:19:40] Speaker A: Or they want to make aliyah to [00:19:41] Speaker B: Israel and they find out that they're really not Jewish. Now it's a real tragedy for the family. I know families that they had. There's a family here. Their son went to college and he met a girl there who he wanted to marry. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Mind you, he met this girl at [00:20:05] Speaker B: the Chabad house there. [00:20:07] Speaker A: And this girl told him he's Jewish. This girl was telling everybody she's Jewish. She's walking out with a big Star of David. This girl was telling everybody who's Jewish. Now, nobody was checking, nobody was asking. If a girl comes to a Shabbat table at the chabad house and she says, hi, I'm Jewish. Great, welcome. Nobody's asking any questions. So he meets this girl at the Chabad house on campus, and they graduate the college and they want to get married. And they come to a rabbi. And this rabbi, like every rabbi should, before officiating, the chuppah checks if both parties are Jewish. [00:20:42] Speaker B: You cannot officiate the chuppah if somebody is not a Jew. And he sees that her mother had a conservative conversion, not an officer's conversion. [00:20:52] Speaker A: The tragedy is that this girl herself grew up thinking that she is Jewish. So now she finds out that she is not Jewish. The boy says, I need to marry a Jew. [00:21:04] Speaker B: I have to marry a Jew. [00:21:05] Speaker A: I cannot marry a non Jew. So now they both are stuck. [00:21:09] Speaker B: You're saying they're going to. Right? But conversion takes many years. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Conversion is not an overnight process. So who created this tragedy here? [00:21:18] Speaker B: It's that synagogue. It's that rabbi. [00:21:20] Speaker A: They did not tell the full truth, the full truth about what they're doing. If a real estate agent is only licensed to do certain documents you sign is valid only in one state, not another state, he has to disclose it to his clients. If a lawyer assigns a document and he says, you know what, you could go with this document to the government agencies in this state, but you cannot go in a different state. Right? He has to tell to them. But the problem is that very often non Orthodox rabbis don't do that. [00:21:49] Speaker B: And that creates a lot of. A lot of problems in the Jewish community because it creates heartbreaks. It creates a lot of turmoil. [00:21:56] Speaker A: So now this explains everything about conversions [00:22:00] Speaker B: and why, if you'll go to a Reform or Conservative or some other type of synagogue, they might give you your conversion papers in a week or whatever it is.